![Popular open source software is more secure than unpopular open source software, because insecure software becomes unpopular fast. [That doesn't happen for proprietary software.]](../sites/all/themes/drupal4hu/images/bg-center/bg-center_4.png)
The Drupal community is remarkably not sexist and yet... Yesterday, Dries' keynote, alas, had a sex scandal slide which probably just wanted to be a (rather tactless and tasteless) joke but it had rather sexist undertones which have managed to piss off a number of women. But, my frustration is not just from the keynote but the reaction, let me quote two tweets here: "Woman on stage at #drupalcon, Dries can have his sextape in 2010." and even more importantly, from someone who retweeted it and got called out for it "Don't take it so seriously. It was a joke, right?" Now, head over to http://rocktreesky.com/reacting-sexism and you can see that three years ago (exact to day) the documentation team leader of Drupal have written exactly, word-for-word about this. It is absolutely unacceptable behaviour and not a joke to degrade women who have made DrupalCon possible for you to sex objects. As Addi noted in her linked blogpost, sexism won't stop just because we write about it, however, I hope this accident will actually make the community even more refusing about sexism and it will be unnecessary to write about it for at least another three years and we can work together on releasing an awesome Drupal 7, 8...
Commenting on this Story is closed.
My biggest frustration in this is that the point Dries was trying to make -- that to grow 10%, we as a community need to broaden our horizons and invite people into our community who do not match 90% of the existing community -- is a wonderful one that we should all take to heart. And Dries is not a sexist guy; anything but. At least a part of why there are so many women contributors in the Drupal community is because there is strong leadership, from the top down, that we need to treat each other respectfully and foster a collaborative environment.
Problem is, for many of the women there, this was their first Drupalcon. They don't know Dries, or anything about his egalitarian leadership style. There were also many women in attendance who have to deal with daily bullshit (particularly in North America) of fighting tooth and nail to gain respect as an engineer/developer, simply because they don't have a beard. There were also many women in the audience who are not developers, and who nevertheless make crucial contributions to the Drupal project -- project management, event management, theming or design, etc. -- whose contributions are just as much if not more valid (none of the Drupalcons in recent memory would've even happened without the grueling work of women on the team, for example) than development skills. And then it certainly didn't help matters when Dries repeatedly referred to moms as being "lower", since moms in the Drupal community have a particularly challenging set of constraints around their time.
Had Dries's comments been made against a backdrop of a rainbow, or a backdrop of a variety of flags from around the world, or anything else but a couple of people having sex, I think the message people took out of the room would've been much, much different. But the association was made, and the comment on Twitter about Camilla (that was subsequently re-tweeted, ugh...) shows that at least some guys left Dries's keynote thinking that this is a remotely acceptable way to talk about women in the Drupal community. This is a really big fucking problem if we are at all serious about attracting and retaining women contributors.
We are not getting upset of the things how they are but only by how we see them (according to our believesystem).
So, I think the statement of Dries wasn´t seen as he meant it.
And second I think the rampage of reactions seems to me a little to big.
For Dries it would´ve been better not do the statements.
What about the "dads"? He said nothing about them.
What about the "brothers"? Noone got upset about this statement of.
For what reason is it allowed to make sexism like statements about men?
Why on earth is noone upset about that?
I think the example with sex in the colored balls is a nice metaphore to show the wish of having more women envolved in drupal. And I think it´ll be nice if the people than are not so far away from native sozialising not to like each other in that more bodyly way. Although girls, we (men) are not willing to have sex with you, too. But it´s nice to think about the future time where are a lot lesser frustrated and more relaxed people, and where the fights between m and w is over and all of us humans (and you women are just human beings too!) are growing and developing together.
Finaly: I don´t like it when men are shown in such a discriminatory way.
How do YOU "see" those statements of Dries. And what does it say about YOU?
Kind regards
Arne
Maybe slides within the drupal community could be limited to just a blue background color and white text in a neutral font like arial. That´s the problem with images, they mean so much (and different things) to different people. Personally, i don´t like flags or rainbows either. We are all part of the problem.
This is the best reply so far, & thank you. I hope that the community can take this as a learning opportunity, see that there's an image problem (shared with many industries) and work to show better judgement going forward, in ALL actions, whether public, professional or personal. Kudos.
The Drupal community isn't sexist - but I until yesterday I'd never realised how loaded it was with humourless prudes and old maids. Poor Dries and poor drupal. I dislike sexism as much as the next -ism, but to jump on yesterday's keynote for sexism - really? Bloody insane.
Nigel, you are completely clueless. Dries needs to do better...
Eric
"Thanks" for showing that Webchick's comments about sexism being a particularly north-american phenomenon are entirely not valid.
To comment like this on this post is painfully sad. Please read Addison's blog post that chx linked to here. If you aren't aware and in agreement you're perspectives are not welcome in the Drupal community.
I agree that sensitivity is required. Many look to the Drupal community as an example of a OS community that has had some success in attracting more women. This is something to be cherished and further nourished, and something we can be proud of. However, I do think that one individual should not presume to talk for the community as to who is and is not welcome.
Who appointed you witchfinder-general?
"If you aren't in agreement you're perspectives are not welcome in the Drupal community."
Are you serious? Are you actually aware of what you're saying here? You realise elsewhere there are others on your side of the debate complaining passionately that terms like "thought police" have been tossed at them? and claiming that "mountains are being of their molehill"?
Dries's speech wasn't sexist. Dries isn't sexist. Drupal isn't sexist.
And the suggestion that anyone disagreeing with you about this favours sexism in Drupal, is quite frankly, infantile browbeating and an abject way to represent your case. You can argue all you like about Dries' remarks and the effect they've had on newcomers - but I'll tell you one thing for sure: no-one will ever be attracted to drupal by the sight of pitchforks.
Dries has kept quiet so far, but he must feel hurt by this overreaction and deeply aggrieved at the injustice of it. His class is such he'd never let on one way or the other. You can guarantee his first impulse will be to bridge-build - which should shame the people who've spoken about him the last couple of days as if he was a liability. He's the greatest asset we have.
I agree about the sex slide even though I am wholly not offended by things like that. My POV there is simply that because of who he is and his lead of a large community that he needs to scrutinize things like that probably more than others would have to.
But let me ask this. Had Dries' referred to "Dad's Weekly Poker Game" instead of "Mom's Tupperware Party" would there have been such an uprising? Is the issue that he was characterizing a personality or a woman? There is a marked difference between sexism and an innocent stereotype. The former breeds hate and inequality but the latter is used to help people identify with a topic.
I respect every woman in this community and every person who is brave enough to be a mother full-time and work tirelessly for this project. That said, I don't believe using the known stereotypes to help drive home a point are the end of the world. Everyone parses it different. To some people, they saw red and immediately lit the ires of Twitter followers all over. To others, they envisioned their own Mom who might not be as technically aware as them and said, "Oh yeah! That's what we should do!" - Neither are wholly accurate but historically, and I mean historically as in the last 400 years since literature has really flourished, these correlations have been made for us as people. So it makes it easier to identify for some. Don't shoot the messenger or expect that the leader of an open source project is going to change the way people are programmed. His even saying it at all indicates that he believed people would make the connection he was expecting they would and not react in furor.
Great post though. I am proud to be part of a community that takes everything as seriously as we do. it's just that kind of thing that WILL make us 10x bigger.
People suck, male or female. The only experience I have with women in the Drupal community leads me to believe they are as filthy as the worst men I've met in all industries. I've only met a few women in the Drupal community. Women across all industries need to maintain the highest standards, in their personal and professional lives. We are pioneers and our behavior sets the tone for how all are perceived. A sexist joke on stage, made by male or female, is poor judgment. Period. And poor judgement is the exact phrase I would use to describe _every_ encounter I've had with anything related to Drupal.
If you want to be taken seriously, write clean code, design projects using best practices, conduct yourself professionally, and honor every single vow and promise you make, to a client, partner, associate or spouse. You are a reflection of your community. Think before you act.
"The only experience I have with women in the Drupal community leads me to believe they are as filthy as the worst men I've met in all industries."
Troll elsewhere. Thanks.
You write:
The Drupal community is remarkably not sexist
I disagree.
I think chx means that Drupal's community is not sexist in comparison to other comparable communities. We are better than lots of others (see Flash and Rails flareups a year or two ago for shameful examples), but that doesn't mean we should stop working on these points.
Thanks for the clarification, Greg. I don't know enough about those communities to compare them.
It sounds like we (you and I, regardless of chx) agree that sexism exists in the Drupal community.
Here's the thing: what Dries did was stereotyping. It's a stereotype that is widely accurate, in the same way that it is generally accurate to say that men are stronger than women; that is, even though there are very notable exceptions, women tend typically to be less strong and less technically adept than men. However, this is still a stereotype, and stereotypes should not be projected by the leader of a community in the middle of a statement about how he wants the community to grow larger and more diverse. So it was bad. It shouldn't have happened. Hopefully, we can learn from this and improve, because sexism (as with many other biases) is still a problem in not just the Drupal community but in pretty much every community.
On the other hand, this issue has been more explosive than it should have been. Yes, the comment was sexist, and it was wrong to say. But it's also wrong to take it out of context and see it as an indication that something is fundamentally wrong with the Drupal community or that the Drupal community is inherently hostile to women. Because the fact is that there are people in the Drupal community who are hostile to women, but the project has a whole has generally been more welcoming than the average open-source project, and that attribute has been a key feature of Drupal's success.
It's impressive how vastly you crossed the line of what Dries said, hurdled it, and heroically leaped forward into completely hostile, sexist, vapid stupidity. Your entire comment actually makes everyone else's point for them, without them having to say a single word. Think before you talk next time.
I'm sorry you feel that way. As a woman in the web dev community, the behavior of the women I've known in the Drupal community have been shameful. That being said, I know fewer than I can count on one hand. Lucky me. I'm a supporter of @webchick, from afar. Perhaps if I met her my opinion would change.
The rest of the web development world is just as ridiculously sexist. It impresses me that it becomes a point of conversation, though, as I've never seen it discussed in the other industries I've worked in.
It just seems thoughtless that a sexist joke would be made in such a large forum as Drupalcon. If it was a local community that knows each other, perhaps it could pass. It was poor judgement.
And, to respond to the other person who wishes that I identify myself: no, thank you. I can sense this is not the kind of environment where outsiders who disagree are tolerated. I would be hunted down and harassed. I hope to meet smart, conscientious, ethical, hardworking women who work in Drupal — and who are motivated to making it a cms that outputs fabulous code. It is the only enterprise level cms that is really viable, but it still needs to be better — what doesn't?
I can't figure out if I misinterpreted what you said, and owe you an apology or if you are a troll.
You said "women tend typically to be less technically adept than men." and that that stereotype is generally accurate. Do you really believe that women are generally less technically adept? or were you providing that as a misconception?
That's what I took offense to, so if thats not what you intended to say, and you don't actually believe that, please completely disregard my previous comment.
There are multiple anonymous posters on here. The statement that you quote, said "women tend typically to be less technically adept than men." -- wasn't mine, but reading through it, I see that they definitely made it clear that it is a stereotype.
Thanks for this, chx. As for some of these comments... ::shakes head::
Thank you Karoly for your continuing to speak publicly about this. As much as there are a lot of women who took issue with this (and sadly many were mocked for such), it does help validate the issue among many of the men in the community by having their peers take a stand. And it helps reinforce that it's not okay. You (chx), Greg (greggles), and the two Ben's (bangpound and ben-agaric) among others have been such big supporters and it's much appreciated.
I was pretty shocked and disappointed by Dries' "joke", and agree with most of the stuff in Angie's (webchick) comment - including that I don't believe Dries is in any way trying to alienate women from the community (though that can be the result of these sorts of incidents). I just feel our fearless leader needs to do better on such issues. He's human of course and makes mistakes, but it does indeed reflect badly, especially to those who don't know him or the community.
If anyone reading this thinks some of the women are overreacting, just imagine the joke was something about race - you wouldn't be saying "oh, but it was only a *little* racist, and really all in good fun", would you?
Really, every female I've met from the Drupal community is a dishonest person in her professional and personal life. After my earlier post, I thought more about it and am amazed to find this is really true. Weird. Hungry for fame, attention and money.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm could you please identify yourself?
As Larry Garfield (Crell) once said, "Where is the line between accepting too much and being overly sensitive?"
Why does such a relatively minor incident have to incite such an extreme reaction?
If I'm correctly understanding the thread, the problem stems from an unfortunate slide that could have been read as sexist by someone who doesn't know the presenter or the community (e.g. first timer at drupalcon?)
While Dries could have done better (and he may chose or not to apologize), let's recognize that we're all subject to making such context-sensitive slip ups. Rather than nit-pick on clips and quotes, let's take the high road of putting them into context and big picture before making strong accusations agains someone, or the community.
When I heard his comment, I thought "eh, he's just dorky." All my fellow programmers make awkward racy comments at inappropriate times. Just look at this earlier post of his: http://buytaert.net/strange-feeling . If I were a woman reading this, I'd think "who the eff is this guy?" As a programmer reading this, I think "awkward!"
The keynote didn't make me think drupal=sexism. But after reading all these comments, seeing all the tweets -- I'm having doubts :s
I know, right? I never thought of it as an issue until people started being so vehement about it in overblown reactions to everyone else's overblown reactions to what was really a sort of mild suggestion on Dries' part.
I think the issue of whether or not you know how Dries typically manages the community, and behaves towards it, changes your perceptions of these things; that explains why I didn't see what he said as sexist at the time so much as dorky and a bit daft - also, sexism can be hard to spot when it's from people you trust; yet so much of the ensuing commentary has been (to me) clearly sexist.
Leaders, however egalitarian, have a duty to be careful with this sort of stuff. It's a powder keg of unexamined privilege. They have to walk on eggshells with issues like this. They have to err on the side of political correctness: as arguably should we all, but those at the top bear a heavier burden because whether they like it or not they lead by example.
If Drupal is ever to become fully representative of the wider demographics breakdowns, its key public figures have to be active in positive discrimination. Positive discrimination is how you say "we know groups are under-represented, for no good reason, and that's broken; we as a community want to fix what's broken because that's what humans do." It's a quick kludge, too, that works surprisingly well, and you can always discard it when stats finally show it's not needed.
And yet... it's been said now. There's no taking it back. Where do we go from here? What's the best route to putting this right? Sexism has to be called out as such, but along with being reactive maybe we also need to be proactive about inclusivity in the community. I don't know if people want a public apology from Dries - I dare say he's already given private apologies and I'm sure he never meant the very real offence - but are there more productive things that can be done instead or as well?
Maybe we could have a Drupal initiative on equality coming from if not the top then near the top. If an equality equivalent of #d7ux or #d7cx was seen to have full backing of Dries and others then that could go some way to publicly rebuilding bridges. Maybe we needed it three years ago at the time of Addison's original post.
Sorry to post another "yes, this, thanks!" comment, Károly! But this is really spot-on.
I think that a public apology from Dries is necessary; not a self-flagellation but a proportionate acknowledgment that his comments were out of order and sexist. It's necessary because of his role as a leader in this community, as you said.
But yeah, proactive efforts around sexism and other isms in the Drupal community - also much needed, and ultimately much more powerful than mere apologies and reactions.
Well it's not the first time this has happened, is it?
http://nodeone.se/blogg/thomas-barregren/sexism-on-the-package-design-of-drupal-the-card-game
I wish as much attention could be given to issues where community organizers *actively* work to alienate a large portion of our community as is given to this accidental offense.
See, http://drupal.org/node/805888
As a woman interested in drupal I find this entire debate shocking.
Dries' comments were funny. He meant no harm. For everyone to take it to this extreme makes it appear like a witch-hunt and in fact does more harm enticing new users than help. I for one, am not interested in working with people who have no sense of humor and who take innocent jokes to this extreme. You are only hurting yourselves. Our European counterparts aren't as uptight about sex and you shouldn't be either. The attempt to assassinate this man's character isn't warranted.
I'm shocked too about all those reactions. It seems that Drupal community doesn't have to wait till 2020 for a "sex scandal" while it has already a sexist one in 2010.
I didn't find any sexist remark or insult in Dries keynote. It may has been tasteless for many people at the conference but certainly it was not offensive.
Following the same logic, someone could accuse Kitten Killers... "I can be your module, you can be my theme - sounds sexist, isn't so? The "Module" appears to be male as gender while "Theme" seems to be feminine. For many developers, modules are more important components. Does this mean that women are less important than men? Oh, my God! This is pure madness...
There is real sexism around us. Better focus on that.